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Data Sets are files. Please stop stressing they are not.

 
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jasorn
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:55 am    Post subject: Data Sets are files. Please stop stressing they are not.
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This is a sore topic for me lately because I've been part of several conversations where people have been down right nasty because someone called a data set a file. Not all files are data sets but all data sets are files.

Moreover, if a data set is empty, it's not even a data set. It's a file. This is by definition according to IBM and IBM should know.

I understand the usefulness of pointing out that data set is the common term used on the mainframe but data sets are files!

You might as well be shouting people down for calling squares rhombuses or rectangles.

Data sets are files by definition according to IBM

From https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/zosbasics/com.ibm.zos.zconcepts/zconc_datasetintro.htm

z/OS® manages data by means of data sets. The term data set refers to a file that contains one or more records.
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Rohit Umarjikar

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:31 am    Post subject:
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http://ibmmainframes.com/viewtopic.php?p=344071&highlight=#344071

This has being discussed several times but yet no conclusion, if one wants to call it Dataset or file then let them be calling that and if someone feels and trying to correct Datasets are the only term to be used then let them say that too, For me the most important is Post than juggling around file Vs Dataset . icon_razz.gif
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jasorn
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:44 am    Post subject: Agreed but it's still going on.
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But this misinformation is still being spread and people are still get belittled when choosing to use the term file.

When someone senior says, and I quote, "And it is a data set, not a file -- z/OS has files on tape or in Unix System Services only; every disk data set (and VSAM is on disk) is a data set not a file.", it's not only inaccurate, it's not a friendly introduction to the community.

Thought I'd point out it's inaccurate and not helpful. That's all. I'll leave it there.
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RahulG31

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply to: Data Sets are files. Please stop stressing they are not.
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Although I believe it is unnecessary but, who is stopping the Moderators in creating a poll?

.
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Rohit Umarjikar

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:21 am    Post subject:
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RahulG31, I remember you created a topic on this in past and now it’s hard to find that most probably it’s wiped out.
The poll ain’t help completely because if poll results turn out to use Dataset and people still follow files in reference then what, we will have the same discussion and then we might have to take periodic polls :-)

May be we all need here is a mutual understanding.
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RahulG31

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply to: Data Sets are files. Please stop stressing they are not.
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No, it's not wiped out. The link that you provided contains the link to the other topic in my post:

http://ibmmainframes.com/about65400.html

I am also against the forced opinion (of calling 'it' a data set) and agree that a poll may Not help.

.
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jasorn
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:45 am    Post subject: Does accuracy mean nothing?
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I know I said I'd leave it there. But it seems the fact that it's objectively false to say a data set is not a file is lost in the discussion. That's a definition in a forum where definitions matter and senior members are teaching the falsehood to new members.

They are data sets but the are are also files. Remember that if they are empty, they're not even datasets. They are only files. So don't say, "It's not a file, it's a data set." If you must enforce the use of 'data set' at least define it correctly. It's a file and a data set. We prefer the term 'data set'. Please try to use it."

It doesn't seem acceptable to keep claiming data sets are not files. Especially to the point of belittling someone.

The greybeards here, I'm one now, do fine work. Just makes me cringe when I see posts in 2018 from senior members and moderators smacking newbies with things that aren't true.
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Rohit Umarjikar

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:48 am    Post subject:
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I thought apart from the link posted by you there was one more that starts by you later point.Never mind thanks.
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phunsoft

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Agreed but it's still going on.
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jasorn wrote:
When someone senior says, and I quote, "And it is a data set, not a file -- z/OS has files on tape or in Unix System Services only; every disk data set (and VSAM is on disk) is a data set not a file.", it's not only inaccurate, it's not a friendly introduction to the community.


When I originally read what jasorn quoted, I thought I would reply and correct him, but then -- being new to the forum -- I decided otherwise.

Now that the topic has been created let me add my $0.02

I've been an MVS instructor for some years, and I was teaching OpenEdition MVS (now called z/O UNIX) from the beginning. I used to tell my students that "... in this (OpenEdition) class I'll use the term data set when I refer to a traditional MVS data set as oposed to a UNIX files system file. And I'll use the term file when referring to a UNIX file. I'll do that to help you understand the differences there are. But note that ouitside of this class the terms will be used interchangably in day to day communication, and writing."

So, use terms unambiguously when the difference do matter, and tolerate either term if they do not.

And in my world, MVS tapes [b|do[/b] contain data sets not files, it's still blocks and records on tapes not byte streams.
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steve-myers

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Data Sets are files. Please stop stressing they are not.
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jasorn wrote:
This is a sore topic for me lately because I've been part of several conversations where people have been down right nasty because someone called a data set a file. Not all files are data sets but all data sets are files.
You miss the fundamental difference between a "file" as used in *nix and Windoze and "data set" as used in OS/360 and its descendants. A "file" has no internal structure as recognized by *nix or Windoze. A data set is divided into strictly defined records and higher level structures as in a PDS or VSAM data set.
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Moreover, if a data set is empty, it's not even a data set. It's a file. This is by definition according to IBM and IBM should know.
Not true. A "file"is empty because its label states it has 0 bytes in it. A "data set" is "empty" because its label says there is no end of data.
Quote:
I understand the usefulness of pointing out that data set is the common term used on the mainframe but data sets are files!
You can believe what you want to believe, but ...
Quote:
You might as well be shouting people down for calling squares rhombuses or rectangles.
Data sets are files by definition according to IBM

From https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/zosbasics/com.ibm.zos.zconcepts/zconc_datasetintro.htm

z/OS® manages data by means of data sets. The term data set refers to a file that contains one or more records.
Actually in plane geometry, a square is also a rectangle.
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Robert Sample

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply to: Data Sets are files. Please stop stressing they are not.
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From the z/OS Glossary IBM web site at https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/zosbasics/com.ibm.zglossary.doc/zglossary.html#d :
Quote:
data set. In z/OS, a named collection of related data records that is stored and retrieved by an assigned name. Equivalent to a file in other operating systems.
So IBM's official z/OS glossary web site distinguishes between "files" and "data sets" -- and notice that they are called "equivalent to", not "the same as". The term "file" in this glossary is defined as a fairly limited structure:
Quote:
file. A collection of related data that is stored and retrieved by an assigned name. A file can include information that starts a program (program-file object), contains text or graphics (data-file object), or processes a series of commands (batch file). See data set .

When someone on a forum for experts such as this one uses "file" instead of "data set", to me that is a red flag that the person does not have enough experience to know the difference, or does not care about the difference (and hence who knows what they are really doing on their system that they posted about).
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enrico-sorichetti

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply to: Data Sets are files. Please stop stressing they are not.
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please please let's stop the dataset/file horse manure
for how long have You all been nagging people about it ?
what results did You get ?
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