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Delete Tape datasets that are not in catalog

 
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Gousiya Mulla

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:06 pm    Post subject: Delete Tape datasets that are not in catalog
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Hi ..

Can any one suggest me how to delete the tape DSNs that are not in the catalog .

I have tried using the IDCAMS , since they are not in the catalog it doesn't worked .

I have tried with RMM request , it also did not worked since I do not have access for the same .. Below is the message

RMM DD 'Tape DSN' VOL(XXXX)
EDG3202E USER NOT AUTHORIZED TO ISSUE THIS REQUEST

So I have to delete them using the DSN name and the corresponding volumes ..

Pls suggest me any other alternatives

Thanks !!!
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enrico-sorichetti

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply to: Delete Tape datasets that are not in catalog
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How nice if people would understand how tapes work ( from a dataset existence and access perspective )...

general point ...
1) for cataloged datasets , apart SMS considerations and VSAM ,
uncataloging a dataset mean that the dataset is still theree on the volume on which it was created
and to access it You have to use the proper UNIT=..,VOL=SER=... JCL keywords
but the concept has been grasped ( it looks )

2) You can delete a DASD/DISK dataset trhu IDCAMS - DELETE ... - or JCL - DISP=(OLD,DELETE) -
the dataset will vanish into oblivion, but the data is still on the disk ( generally speaking)
and can be recovered ( partially/completely) if the physical/logical tracks have not been overwritten/reassigned/purged
( very tricky, but it can be done )

repeat with me 99...99 times icon_biggrin.gif
YOU CANNOT DELETE/SCRATCH/REMOVE A DATASET FROM A TAPE
...
YOU CANNOT DELETE/SCRATCH/REMOVE A DATASET FROM A TAPE
edited to reword (e.s.)

as long as the tape physically exists and has not been overwritten...
all the datasets on that tape are there and can be accessed

even when the <TAPE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM> returns the tape to the scratch pool
... same as above

warning icon_biggrin.gif, let' s not get into a VTS debate
so, back to Your question, what are exactly Your requirements
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Gousiya Mulla

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:48 pm    Post subject:
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Thanks for huge information ...

My requirement is to remove/scratch the DSNs which are on Tape ...
I can not see them in 3.4 option .. so I assume they are not in catalog ...

Now I know the Tape DSNs and its corresponding volumes ...

Pls advice how can I scratch/remove them from tape !!
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enrico-sorichetti

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply to: Delete Tape datasets that are not in catalog
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even if the info provided was as You defined it <huge>
it was just a loss of time to write it, since You did not care to try to understand it

what was not clear... tell me and,
since I am in a good mood, I will try to explain it again in different words, but...

why in <heaven> You need to ...
who set the stupid requirement ...
if the proper security has been implemented only authorized users might be able to see the dataset

as a general logic a <tape management system> will keep for each tape the number of <not expired/active> datasets contained on that volume
when the active dataset count is zero the tape will be returned to the scratch pool, but the datasets will still be on the tape


... ... ...
one way would be to degauss the tape
http://www.periphman.com/degaussing/tape-degaussing/
but it would be wise to make a backup copy of the tape before degaussing it

don' t You have a storage support group in Your organization
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Gousiya Mulla

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject:
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Thanks again !!

I am confused ... sry if I am not specific in the technical terms ...

I understand ..

Once you catalog a new DSN on tape it will be created on a particular volume . I can see that (DSN and volume) using 3.4 (but cant see data until cant copy it to disk) ...

Now , I need to vanish (hope u wont include this word also in the 99..99 repeat) icon_biggrin.gif ..
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Robert Sample

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject:
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TSO users do not get to mount tapes. So you cannot see the data that was put on the tape until it is copied from tape to disk. The data set name and volume serial are stored in the catalog, which is a disk data set that has pointers to every data set known to the system. If you can do ISPF 3.4 and see a data set name without putting a volume serial in the field for it, the data set is cataloged. Hence you can get at least minimal information even though you cannot access the data itself.
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expat

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject:
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What exactly do you want to do, to release the tapes back into the scratch pool
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enrico-sorichetti

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply to: Delete Tape datasets that are not in catalog
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Quote:
What exactly do you want to do, to release the tapes back into the scratch pool


I wish he knew.. at the end of the writing I couldn' t understand the requirement either icon_redface.gif
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Anuj Dhawan

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:05 pm    Post subject:
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I'll start with what you want to listen... Data sets on tape can be deleted just like any disk data set, but there are some additional things to be aware of. For example, if the tape data set was created with an expiration date, simply uncataloging the tape data set won't delete it. Your tape management system will usually maintain the tape until it is either explicitly deleted or the expiration date is reached. If the tape has multiple data sets, all of them have to reach expiration before the tape can be returned to the scratch pool.
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expat

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject:
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Anuj Dhawan wrote:
I'll start with what you want to listen... Data sets on tape can be deleted just like any disk data set, but there are some additional things to be aware of. For example, if the tape data set was created with an expiration date, simply uncataloging the tape data set won't delete it. Your tape management system will usually maintain the tape until it is either explicitly deleted or the expiration date is reached. If the tape has multiple data sets, all of them have to reach expiration before the tape can be returned to the scratch pool.

Generally, I would agree with most of that, but, having worked in some shops where the first dataset only was used in the retention control, as soon as that dataset was deleted, the whole tape was returned to scratch.

Again, it may be site specific that if a tape dataset is uncataloged that this may override the retention period specified in the JCL.

You really need to know the tape retention policies of your site to do exactly what it is that you want to do. Unfortunately no one here on the forum can help as we do not know what your site policies are.
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enrico-sorichetti

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply to: Delete Tape datasets that are not in catalog
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Quote:
Data sets on tape can be deleted just like any disk data set


the issue abut tape dataset deletion starts getting on my nerves
and too many seem willing to get into a fight...

TAPE DATASETS WILL NOT BE DELETED
A TAPE DATASET WILL BE DELETED ONLY BY OWERWRITING OR PHYSICALLY DESTROYING THE MEDIA

ALL OF YOU WHO THINK THAT A TAPE DATASET CAN BE DELETED READ THE F*****G MANUAL

http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-
bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/iea2b540/4.6.2.1.1?SHELF=IEA2BK81&DT=20040712160458&CASE=

paying attention to...
Quote:
Specifying DELETE requests that the data set's space on the volume be released at termination of the step:

* If the data set is on a public tape volume, the tape is rewound. The volume is available for use by other job steps.

* If the data set is on a private tape volume, the tape is rewound and unloaded. The system issues a KEEP message.

* If the data set is on a private direct access volume, the description of the data set is removed from the VTOC. The space on the volume is available to other data sets.

for item one, if the tape is not reused it will still contain the dataset
the system will accept the DELETE keyword for tape datasets,
but the result will not be that of a DELETE used for a dasd dataset
at most the tape dataset will be uncataloged

looks like the thread is shifting from the original bad question to the issue of returning a tape to the scratch pool
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Gousiya Mulla

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:29 pm    Post subject:
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All ,

Thanks for your time and information ...

I have requested our storage support and they have actioned .
Not sure what they have done .. but updated that datasets deleted (sorry Enrico the word 'delete' also used by support team) .

They would have used the RMM to action the same , I was not able to do the same since I do not have the access !!
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nevilh

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
A TAPE DATASET WILL BE DELETED ONLY BY OWERWRITING OR PHYSICALLY DESTROYING THE MEDIA

ALL OF YOU WHO THINK THAT A TAPE DATASET CAN BE DELETED READ THE F*****G MANUAL

Besides the fact that the statements contradict each other . This Statement breaks at least 2 of the Forum rules. As a Moderator you should be setting an example to the rest of the users.
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enrico-sorichetti

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply to: Delete Tape datasets that are not in catalog
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and ?
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nevilh

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:24 pm    Post subject:
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And nothing, it just seems a shame that double standards seem to apply. How can we expect users to follow the rules when those charged with enforcing the rules are exempt.
Quote:
nobody is excused from them (except moderators and admin).
I appreciate that the moderators invest a lot of their time in keeping the Forum going however
It would be nice if at least some attempt was made to follow the rules that the rest of us mere mortals are expected to adhere to.
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